Violent Tobago

[I.Sothcott]

My family and I have just returned from our second holiday in Tobago and shall never return. On friday the 5th march 2010 myself, my 23 year old daughter and her boyfriend had been fishing (alongside several other family groups) when we were held up at gunpoint and robbed. I shall not bore you with the details but you can imagine what went through my mind when this evil man pointed his gun at my daughter. The fact that it later turned out to be an imitation gun makes no difference, the fact that the police caught the creep within four hours (more by luck than judgement) and he was sentenced to 7 years with hard labour makes no difference. Tobago IS a violent island. The true extent of the violence is covered up. According to the police officers we dealt with and the virtually useless British Consular representative, crimes of this kind happen every week on Tobago, they were actually surprised that we hadn't been "chopped" with cutlasses (machetes).

Of course people all say it could have happened everywhere, well maybe so, but it didn't, it happened in Tobago.

To put the level of violence in Tobago in perspective, since we first visited just three years ago there have been, to my knowledge, 2 Swedish people murdered, 2 Britsh people hacked almost to death, 1 german man murdered, 1 British girl sexually assaulted, 7 people held, stripped, robbed and sexually abused at machine-gun point, three British people held prisoner at machete point, 1 man clubbed and robbed at Stonehaven, 1 person robbed at Pleasant prospect, 1 man robbed at Crown Point and my family robbed at gunpoint. These are just the crimes I know about and are only those against toursists. If you now consider that the population of Tobago is only about the same as the small city of Lincoln, England you get an idea of just how dangerous the place is.
Elsewhere on this website it states that there are "absolutely no no-go areas in Tobago", how wrong that is. Virtually anywhere after dark is no-go, Back Bay is no-go.
My advice to anyone is to stay well clear of Tobago, it's not worth it.

[Paul Tallet]

Welcome I Sothcott.

I am sorry to hear of this and I hope that your family can recover from the trauma of such a horrifying incident ... I see that this is your first post on this forum.

There are a few problems though ... let me explain

Firstly, I would have expected your experience to have been reported in the news ... I have searched in vain ... could you direct me?

Secondly, if so many others were involved or witness to the incident, why are you the only spokesperson?

Thirdly, I am amazed that this incident occurred on the 5th March and the culprits are already tried, tested and behind bars for 7 years ... that's a pretty cool 'less than' 16 day turn-around for a conviction ... this point needs clarifying.

Fourthly, I live in the UK and I have been mugged or assaulted/robbed 4 times here. And it does happen in other parts of the world. I expect that I may, one day, be mugged in Tobago as much as I could be anywhere else and do not consider that Tobago should be an exception ... but I think it is not fair that you should suggest that Tobago is 'a violent island' based on your unfortunate experience. A mugging would not stop me going anywhere anymore than my choice to stay in the country in which I have been mugged 4 times.

Fifthly ... what gets you gets me ... there are many reports of the dangers to your security in Tobago in this website and advice about where to avoid (i.e.; Back Bay to which you refer) ... plus constant updates in the forum ... and you say there are none ... please clarify what you mean?

Sixthly ... Is there any need to refer to other unrelated incidents that we are already aware of?

Finally ... I am unbiased ... I will sing the songs of Tobago as much as I will criticise it ... it is a beautiful place like many others and it has a dark side like all the countries of the world ... but one must be fair ...

... Tobago is no better or worse than anywhere ... it's beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I am sad that your unfortunate experience compels you to encourage others to avoid it.

Regards

[Fred Feldmann]

What a shame to hear that a beautiful island like Tobago is descending into the same criminal culture of violence as its sister island Trinidad. I wouldn't want to have a large holding of stock in a Tobagonian hotel in my portfolio right now. Its not hard to guess that the drug trade is the root of the problem along with disintegrating family values and it doesn't take the gift of a prophet to realize that the worsening situation will eventually impoverish a society that depends on tourism. My heart goes out to the people of Tobago who will pay the price of their politician's inability to come to terms with this increasingly desperate state of affairs.


I

[Ronald]

Hi all
When Fred say "Its not hard to guess that the drug trade is the root of the problem.." he´s correct. As T&T is just a few miles outside South America, the T&T area, both at land and at sea, is used to dump drugs on their way to US and Europe.
They do get some Boats on-off, but they will never get all of them, and because its a lot of money involved, these problems remains.

However, it´s also correct to say that the increasing crime in T&T, and some other islands as well, partly depends on the fact that USA since some years deport criminals, with their roots in W.I., back to their island where they are born. And these criminals of course take "their business" with them.
They doesn´t start a new life, they start a new business back home again, and existing young criminals only see, "lot of money, guns, respect, I want that too".
So, a stronger Government in T&T will never be able to solve these crime alone, there´s far to many countries involved, and it´s far to much money involved too. The peoples in the top are very often known as respectable ones.

As many of these criminals have been "educated and trained" in US, the problem it self is not only the separate Caribbean Islands. US has some parts of their drug police in W.I. too, but as long the "drug barons" in South America and Mexico remain strong, we will have these problems in W.I.

And finally, one reason for increasing crime in Tobago is also the fact that better and faster communications between Trinidad and Tobago, make it possible for criminals to make a "business raid" in Tobago and leave the island, going back to Trinidad, before the Police catch them.
Ronald

[Robert T]

HI Ian,


I'm sorry to hear that your family had to go through this terrible ordeal. What really shocks me is that it all happened while fishing. I spent vast amount of time fishing around the island during our three visits and even in darkness it always proved to be trouble free though many times I was warned by local fishermen about the dangers of fishing alone on certain beaches.

This is the true reason why we never even toyed with the idea of paying a visit to Back Bay.

Hope you all well.


Paul,

Here's a link to put your mind at rest

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl ... =161605868


Regards

Robert

[I.Sothcott]

Reply to Paul Tallet.
You didn't seem to make much effort in your search did you? Here's the link http://www.thetobagonews.com/index.pl/a ... d=27252845

Robbed at 4.30 Pm, friday, arrested at 8.30 Pm, friday, jailed Monday Am, sorry if you don't believe me but it would seem that you look at tobago through rose tinted glasses.

The reason for listing the other incidents is that it was an article about the general violence, how can one write about violence without writing about violence.

When we arrived at back bay there were several other family groups there, Anderson Murray robbed us as they departed.

As for taking your family back to somewhere where their life has been threatened, well, I'll let others be the judge of what kind of parent that would make you. Had I been on my own I wouldn't bother, the fact that my beautiful 23 year old daughter thought she was going to be die on some backward island at the hands of an evil man means that I shall never set foot on the vile place again and I will advise all that ask me never to go there. This world is full of wonderful places and, guess what, Tobago is not one of them.

You may wish to defend the place, that is your right, personally I can no longer stand the place.

As for intimating that I am not telling the truth, check you facts, ie a simple internet search of teh Tobago newspapers.

[Paul Tallet]

Hi Ian

Thanks for the link. I couldn't find it but thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

Please accept my apologies if you feel I was suggesting your comments are untrue. That was not intended. I was only asking questions and the only point I did not agree with was your opinion that Tobago is a 'no-go' area ... but as you say, we are all entitled to our opinions.

Your post stated what happened which I agree was horrific and it's important that everyone is reminded that these incidents happen.

What now seems to be the most positive part of your post is the extremely quick reaction by the Police and the impressive speed in which the offender was punished ... 7 years ... I bet he would get little more than a fine and community service for that in the UK (for a first offence) ... so it is very reassuring for me and anyone else to see that the authorities are taking swift action that has been pretty much unheard of before.

Knowledge of this would make me feel safer in Tobago.

I also appreciate that feelings can run high as people recover from the shock of violence or threats against them but I was only asking if it is fair to say that such an incident should be a reflection of Tobago as a whole? (i.e.; a no go area?) ...

... this sort of raises a big question and distracts from the horrifying experience you have endured.

Of most importance is that you and your family recover from this.

Regards

[I.Sothcott]

Just for the record this was not Anderson Murrays' (the robber) first offence, he had just been released from prison for robbery with violence. he was not a drug user, he had a job at his Aunts retaurant and he lived with her and she looked after him. He is 25 years old. Basically he had it all going for him.

[Fred Feldmann]

Well, to be honest Mr. Murray and young people like him on Tobago do not have it "all going for them". Without higher education and a better job possibility to aim for, a waiter in the family restaurant is about all Mr. Murray can expect in life. Is it any wonder that these kids turn to violent crime as a path to having the things they see on TV? Family, church and societal values used to hold them in check in previous generations but no longer. Welcome to the brave new world of increasing violence wherever there is a great disparity between rich and poor. You might call it socialism by other means.

[Rachel Crew]

I would just like to mention that the incident was very widely reported here - both on the tv and in the newspapers.
Unfortunately many other incidents are not - either reported in the media or reported to the police - and so it is regrettable no longer enough to say that because we are not seeing news reports these types of crimes are not happening. Regrettably they are. Both to visitors and residents. Just this weekend there was another armed robbery (at gunpoint). Sadly the community here is having to deal with the impact of that on our daily lives, AND the impact on the economy.

[Roel le Pair]

Feldman, what a disgusting easy excuse !
Sorry not having reached your standard of socialsm and civilisation. Ofcourse we still have to learn that "not having it all going for him" is a valuable excuse for violent crime, how could we ignore that. Thanks for your wisdom by the way.

I hope every waiter in the family restaurant will be proud enough to ignore your abuse. The great majority will. The small minority you're aiming at will find other means to survive than violent crime. So stay at your (small) (not too brave) new world.

[Andy K]

This "Mr. Murray" is from Laventille, if the info in the Express is correct. Well what do we want to expect ?
For those, who don't know, Laventille in Trinidad is the worst of all the poor areas in the country, you have all
rights to call it a "ghetto".
Unfortunately, we experience some crime "tourism" from Trinidad since a while, but the good thing among the bad is that those fellas are often easly identified by the villagers in Tobago. Like in this case.

This is my personal "statistics" (i am in T&T since 1997):

- Laptop computer and some cash stolen through open window at night, 2003, Trincity, Trinidad
- Accidentally witness of shootout in front of my car, 2004, Point Cumana, Trinidad
- Robbed of a small amount of cash at Sunday School, Tobago, 2004
- Accidentally witness of shooting 4 cars in front of me, 2 people killed in the street, St. James, Trinidad, 2006
- Small amount of cash stolen by pick pocket at "the Shade", 2006, Tobago
- Toolkit stolen from vehicle, 2007, Tobago

I think this is all. It could be worse, but it should be none of those things at all !
Here is where i agree with Mr. Sothcott. Especially on vacation you don't want to experience such incident.
But: I still go, occasionally, to "Sunday School" or "The Shade", i still drive through Point Cumana after work and, occasionally, through St. James at night.

Greetings from Trinidad,

Andy

[Fred Feldmann]

Just a note of explanation to Roel le Pair. I wasn't by any means trying to excuse Mr. Murray or the rise in the crime rate, I was merely giving my opinion as to why I think the current culture of violence is increasing in Trinidad and Tobago, indeed throughout much of the world. The increase is brought into greater relief when we realize that even a beautiful island like Tobago and its good natured people is not immune and beginning to succumb to the "Trinidad disease" at an accelerating rate. More's the pity.

[Paul Tallet]

It seems that we are all coming to terms with the shock of 'rising' crime in Tobago.

Possibly all the more of a shock when considering that Tobago is also known as an exotic location where we perceive that crime should be unheard of ... I think that is what people struggle with and probably why this is becoming a big issue.

Our perceptions must change ... I have repeatedly suggested that Crime against tourists is an increasing problem in many other similar places in the world ... the biggest problem is now increasing levels of terrorist risk in many places and, so far, this is a hazard that thankfully does not exist in Tobago.

There is piracy in the Indian Ocean; Child abductions across most of Europe; armed gangs carrying out highway robberies in southern Spain; bombings affecting tourists in Egypt, Spain, Indonesia and India, shootings of tourists/immigrants in Antigua, the Bahamas, St Lucia, Jamaica and considerable concern about the safety of tourists in many African Countries ... lets see how the forthcoming Football World Cup goes in South Africa.

It won't stop many people going to these places.

So ... Tobago has an increasing Crime problem (possibly not helped by Trinidad) ... we need to accept this and take whatever precautions we can if we go there ... it's our choice to go to any place and, to be honest, it should be our responsibility to understand the risks, take avoidance measures on advice and be more ready for anything that can go wrong.

I admit that, having read this thread and, particularly Rachel Crew's contribution, I will be taking more precautions in future ... but I will still go to Tobago ... I still believe there are many more dangerous exotic locations in the world.

Regards

[Fred Feldmann]

There is a solution if people want it. The crime rate in Singapore is one of the lowest in the world due to aggressive law enforcement efforts. How desperate will Tobago's situation become before something is done to avoid a complete meltdown of its tourist industry?

[Paul Tallet]

Very true Fred ... that is a possible solution.

But too many criminals from the UK, US and Europe seem to get caught up in it too !!

We mustn't forget that some of these exotic places need protection from the criminal fraternity in our countries.

Can't even have a snog on a beach in Dubai can you?

Regards

[Dave Self]

I have been to Tobago many times both as a young couple and as a family of one, then two ,then three ,then four children all of whom are under ten years old.I visited Tobago in January for a month long stay yes things have changed and sadly the island i fell in love with and adore is being let down badly by crime i felt uneasy for the first time ever on the island not one specific thing it was things like feeling intimidated on the beach for money people asking for money and a feeling of they dont want us here they want our money.On the road from Roxborough through the rain forest a journey ive done loads of times i was stopped by guy who had his bonnet up and i really thought he had broken down he asked me if i had a map which i did he looked at it with me and told me where the waterfalls were.the best sights to see and best places to eat he then asked for a thousand tt dollars as he had given me lots of usefull information.when i told him to get lost i knew where i was and have visited many times he became agressive called out to two more men in their twenties maybe who where lurking in the trees unseen by me they produced cutlasses and i then felt very afraid i gave them the money and left very quickly i had fits of uncontrolled laughter saying i had been saved the chop for what really in my life is a very small amount of money in the uk then i shook and realised i could have 4 small kids without their dad all because i stopped to help what i genuinely thought was a breakdown yes i reported it to the police and they were nothing short of useless.Now comes the question will i ever want to go back?.Sadly its a no from me and i wont be back anytime soon and i wont be persuing the idea of buying property in Tobago anymore which i fully intended to do before this visit.If only the dear Mr. Hosein (former Coral ridge appartment owner) was still in the judiciary, i remember many chats we had during my visits about the signing of warrants of execution for offenders in Trinidad and the more i see and hear of Tobago the more i wish that the sensible judiciary were back in power and the scum who intimidate and screw every penny from the tourists would be safely behind bars with plenty of hard labour....
oh what a shame for those people who strive to make holidays in Tobago memorable are blighted by these lowlife wake up before its too late

[Paul Tallet]

That's food for thought Dave.

About 5 years ago I was stuck in Scarborough with a flat tyre ... I started changing the tyre and this guy came over and literally took over the job ... there was no argument, he had to do it for me ... when he finished I felt compelled to offer him money even though I had initially resisted his help.

He said 20TT ... I gave him 50TT.

But you are right ... there is always going to be a minority of idiots that will take advantage ... but there are 2 sides to the coin.

I can see how frustrated you are and I know that you could believe my good luck story as much as I do believe your bad luck story.

I despair at times, but there is more good in Tobago than bad ... and I admit that I think I have been lucky ... or am I streetwise ... or daft?

It's difficult for Tobago to regulate this but it goes back to the same old thing ... it could happen anywhere in the world.

The key factor running through this string is that it takes one bad experience and that's it ... 'I am not going back'.

I remain positive ...

Regards

[Fred Feldmann]

Rose tinted glasses are an option Paul but not a good one if you want to protect yourself and your family from being a statistic. The fact is that 15 murders out of a tiny population of 50,000 placed Tobago last year in the top ten most dangerous countries on earth on a statistical per capita basis. So folks, avoid stopping in the middle of nowhere for the old "stranded" highway robbery game. Tobago certainly didn't invent this ruse but as of now you've been warned. Sadly Tobagonians and visitors who really need help on the road may now have a more difficult time obtaining it because of these kinds of stunts.

[Ronald]

Hi Fred

"The fact is that 15 murders out of a tiny population of 50,000 placed Tobago last year in the top ten most dangerous countries on earth on a statistical per capita basis. .." Correct about the number of murders, but you forgotten to say that mostly of them were local peoples, not visitors. It´s true that some foreign were killed too, but not all 15.

I´m from Sweden, if I would behavie like all peoples are OK when visiting other countries, I would sooner or later end up at hospital, even in USA. I´ve been travelling alone since the 60´s, in UK, France, Germany, Portugal, Spain, Greece (many years on different parts), Turkey, Israel, Egypt and also the Carribean Islands as Barbados, St Vincent & the Grenadines, Aruba, Trinidad, Tobago and I´m still alive and walking around alone on two legs, as I don´t drive.

As always, if one doesn´t stop into unknown or deserted areas at home when unknown peoples come forward, why do it when abroad? It´s simply silly to do so. Sure one can check if they really need help, but never leave the car, I don´t think you would do so at home in such a situation, would you?

If it´s normally local peoples in need of help, by that I don´t mean the younger ones, you will mostly know it when talking to them if it´s OK to do so. If you aren´t sure, just tell them that because of reading a lot of cirme affecting visitors, you don´t want to put your family in troubles. They will understand as they also are affected.