Package Tour or Not

[Glyn Kirpalani]

Many thanks for the flattering feedback from John (who started this chain) and lately Barry (whose comments prompted the bachannal! Note - this means "noisy debate" in Tringlish).

All I wish to say is - to Anthony - that we are happy to deal with anyone, rich or poor, pushy or meek, arrogant or submissive. American or Afghan! We do not discriminate and nor should anyone do so - we are all different, why tar all with the same brush?

It does not make us "desperate" if we serve most folks (we draw the line at replying to nasty emails or obvious credit card fraudsters etc), but in the service industry this is what we must do to earn a living!

In actual fact Barry is a perfect gent, merely exasperated at car rental firms not returning emails. He probably never emailed the brokers like us who do reply (and Sunbird, Yes Tourism, Tobago Sunrise etc) but, from personal experience, there are precious few actual rental firms who always reply - Shermans, Sheppy, Rockys and a couple others no doubt. Back in 2001 when my wife and I first rented a vehicle here (as UK tourists) only one of five rental firms replied to our email - and we still use them today, for clients. This forum is littered with emails from folks asking if so and so's email is working since they await replies. With any luck Barry might have saved his original emails and can, therefore, produce evidence of the firms which did not reply (?). Then perhaps he can be given a break and the personal attacks stopped - why can't people see the irony in their statements that americans/New Yorkers are offensive etc, when their own statements are offensive/racist? Fight fire with fire? There are nicer ways to make a point, eg Paul's approach.

These kind of posts can only help* raise the bar and improve standards here in developing Tobago - which we need to survive. Yes it is nice being "quaint and undeveloped", and this attracts lots of visitors, but what happens when our quaint and undeveloped police force, medical services etc etc fails to look after these visitors? They go elsewhere, which is what is happening now. So we must modernise, we must answer emails to compete with other destinations. Or get out of the game.

* assuming only that the non-repliers read this forum, which, by association with their lack of technical interest, they undoubtedly do not - so will they be in business in 5 years time when 90%+ of all tourism bookings come in by email/www?

[Paul Tallet]

Nice to hear from you Glyn

From what Steve says, there are many instances where emails 'disappear' due to the poor telecommunications infrastructure in Tobago.

Unless facilities such as Satellite Broadband (or other similar rocket science) are available I sense it may be difficult for many Tobago businesses offer minimum service standards in terms of email response times.

Sounds like you are managing well though .

Regards

[Glyn Kirpalani]

Hi Paul

Yes you are right - but most "professional web-players" here have high speed DSL now and it works well, if only a fraction of your speeds in the first world. Noone has ever emailed me to say they had previously emailed me, where I did not receive the first one (a convoluted way of saying I do not think I have lost many emails - although I do notice an overnight delay in receiving some from TSTT).

But there is a bigger problem - high levels of illiteracy in older folks, most of whom left school aged 12 or under. I deal with one taxi driver and one guest-house owning couple (all delightful god-fearing folks) and none can read or write, other than to sign their names. They rely on nieces and nephews to translate faxes etc. Many older folks here believe that an email address is a website too - so they sign up with TSTT internet service, get a TSTT email address and put it on their marketing materials. But some simply cannot access it or read emails, and are far too proud to seek help. There are adult literacy classes available but I do not know how well taken up they are.

This may account for a small % of non-repliers. This should change in time as in recent years secondary education was made compulsory and all schools are supposed to have computer labs. Fingers crossed for the future and for TSTT's continued slow improvements in service - at least here in the busy SW of Tobago.

Regards

[Brian Taylor]

not beeing illiterate, but beeing based in castara we have no DSL and believing tstt never will...
tstt is not only delaying mails by a day but really eating them and it happened mor that ones that we could not get our emails anymore and searching help in the scarborough branch the deleted all new mail and gave us a new password to make it work again... it does hapen here!!!
that does not mean, that business people can not get another adress (like a free gmx account) to get their mails there and only log an via tstt...
I guess computer courses would be needed even for the people who can write.
all the talk about developing and getting tobago more up to date is definately right, but it does not give a reason to cross the line of constructive criticism...from what ever nation it comes.
again: no sugar coating, but keep it moderate and not generalized...
I think mytobago is one of the tools already to show some business owners what is possible with the net and how fast good and also bad reviews travel... as people who got the idea, let's do some talking and offer some help and who does not want to learn it now must learn it the hard way in 5 years when they are out of business... they have the choice!
can we rap this here?! i wish we could!

[John Rourke]

Having started this chain of messages and watched the discussion develop over the last 9 months I have decided to to add my pennys worth(or for our particularly arrogant American, Cents worth) again.

Firstly to the lady you offered the first reply Glyn is a registered travel agent via Golden Caribbean Airways.

Secondly do Paul and Steve take it in turns to arrive at their very obvious contrived answers that seem to go out to all posts on this Website. Whatever the question their names seem to pop up with the diplomatic answer? Sorry but it seems obvious to me.

The attitude of BNI seems to me to be the big problem with Tobago at this time. As I have said I have been visiting for 29 years now and the changes have been dramatic but most of them have in been in the last 7 or so years and none of them have been for the good. The island was the best kept secret in the Caribbean but has joined the majority and soled it's soul for the CHEAP tourist dollar and I am sorry but this website has to take part of the blame for this. I am sure people are thinking that this is sour grapes but it really isn't. One reason I use Glyn is that he is a local man making his living placing tourists into local hotels, guest houses etc, renting cars out from local car hire firms whilst making a profit for himself and employing local people thus adding to the economy of the island. The package tour companies are merely exploiting the island for the balance sheet in the UK, USA, Canada, etc and not giving a sxxx for the cosequence to the long term viability of Tobago as a holiday destination.

If this site as it proportes wants to promote Tobago as the desirable holiday destination it really needs to take its head out of its arse and embrase people like and Glyn and work with him to promote the many positives it has to offer and fight the negatives that are becoming more prevalent and obvious to a long term visitor such as me and to the first time visitors that are coming back and saying they will never go back due to the crime and sometimetimes intimitading aggression of some SO CALLED locals. This website has become the place to voice their concerns. It must be remembered that Tobago compared to some islands is little bit raw (the reason I love it) thus being not what some may have expected.

If you had seen the island in the early 70's as I was so fortunate to do so I am not sure you would think so highly of the it now as you do, and would feel as strongly as I do.

10 years ago I was fortunate enough to sit in at a debate with the Tobago Assembly and local hotel owners, and at the time I found it very disturbing. The facts I remember at the time were that there were then 2000 guest bedrooms and all agreed that the limit should be 2500 and no more, Buccoo Reef was under threat, the Rain Forest was suffering, fish stocks were low, land errosion was causing problems due to trees on the sea edge being cut down, the sea was no longer as clear as it was as mud was being washed in. Guess What they did nothing and all of the above came true and I dread to think of the number of gust rooms now. In my opinion the island has been raped by the package holiday maker. I would love to know if the net profit to the island is any greater now than 10 years ago, I bet it isn't because the extra revenue is disappearing of the island.

I know I have gone of the point but if we all love Tobago which I guess we do we need to help it get back it's dignity and support it in the right way which can include supporting local businesses like Glyn. I am not sure who criticised him for dealing with BNI but I run my own business and if I didn't deal with everyone I don't like I wouldn't have many clients. Who the hell were you to tell Glyn who he should and shouldn't deal with. I have to say if BNI wants New York service the simple answer is stay in New York, the rest of the world would be happier, to me half of the charm of Tobago is that it doesn't (or didn't) pander to the rat race we accept as the norm. I was once told you only need to think about 3 things on the island, your mouth tells you when you are thirsty, your tummy tells you when you are hungry and your eyes tell you when you are tired the rest looks after it's self. Now you have to watch your belongings and keep your wits about you.

Lastly, support Glyn and his type and support Tobago and stop this small minded attitude on this website as it is in danger of becoming a breading ground for petty whinges.

I am sorry (no I am not) if this has offended people but you/we have to look at ourselves and do what is right.

[Paul Tallet]

Hi John

In the true spirit of open forum discussion, I will ignore your comments about the provision of 'contrived answers' and focus on some of the good points you made in your post as follows:-


I am not an expert on this but I understand that booking holiday with non-UK operators does have an element of risk if the operator goes bust ... and no matter how desirable it would be to us all to support independent and local agencies in Tobago, the risks have to be a factor in the choice of air travel.

I support your view about supporting Tobago businesses ... I restrict my dealings with International Operators for my flight and deal only with local Tobago businesses when I am there ... at least that assures me that I get there and pay my dues to Tobago.

I agree that it is regrettable how tourism has affected Tobago in many ways but in other ways it has brought many opportunities to local businesses in Tobago and provided some direct or indirect benefit to local communities.

Times inevitably change ... the whole world has changed in the last 29 years ... not just Tobago.

Whatever you say John ... there are always 2 sides to a debate and I look forward to constructive debate ...

Regards

[Steve Wooler]

John

Sod Paul’s comments about the true spirit of open forum discussion (no offence, Paul). This is a private website to which I invite the public and I am bxxxxxxd if I will take such a personal attack lying down.

Well, I don’t know what rattled your cage, John, but keep taking the tablets – hopefully they’ll start working soon. You and BNI should get together – you have a lot in common.

I must thank you, at least, for considering my answers diplomatic. That must be a first! I’m quite proud of that. I always thought I wouldn’t last five minutes in the Diplomatic Service.

Firstly, who criticised Glyn for dealing with BNI? Maybe I’m still suffering jet-lag having only just got back from Tobago, but I really think you have lost the plot. Surely you’re not throwing your toys just because Emma B raised some points about consumer rights?

I am rather intrigued that a man who has been visiting Tobago for 28 years needed any help organising a trip. Maybe you’ve spent too much of your holidays on the island with your feet up on the deckchairs drinking rum punches at one of the AI resorts? I’m even more intrigued that such a regular visitor and reader of the site should only ever have made two posts – both in the same thread. No comments on the accommodation you have stayed at, on restaurants you have dined at, at the beaches and places you have visited. No answers or advice to first-timers seeking information on Tobago. I hope Glyn hasn’t been twisting your arm in his usual persuasive way?

With respect, I have been visiting Tobago a damn site longer than you. If you took the trouble to read my comments on this site rather than just shooting your mouth off, you would have considered your comments more carefully and maybe not come across as such a sanctimonious prig. ALL of us Tobago-lovers feel exactly the same way as you, but what gives you – or me – the right to think that we could keep Tobago a secret and prevent it from developing? The difference is that while you bitch and moan, I am trying to do something about it. There was no way that any of us were going to stop development happening, but at least I’m doing something to ensure that the island develops into a good destination by ensuring that good businesses prosper through positive public opinion and bad businesses are forced to change their ways.

Finally, you talk about supporting local businesses – which we most definitely do. Well Glyn is no more a local business than the Coco Reef or the Rex Turtle. Glyn may be of Trinidadian extraction on his father’s side, but he is as English as you (I assume) or me. So, please get off your high horse. For the life of me I can’t see any just cause for your outburst. I am the LAST person to recommend/promote package tour operators and I TOTALLY embrace the dozens of smaller local tour operators like Glyn, many of who provide excellent service.

[Steve Pitts]

Words fail me - well, words that are printable anyway.

Steve

[Bob White]

Something has obviously rattled the cage......... but whatever individuals may think..... in my opinion this has always been a forum where views can be honestly expressed supported by evidence.

I'm delighted to say that I wouldn't write a reference for Steve to join the diplomatic service! He gives the situation as it is.

[Glyn Kirpalani]

Dear All

What was it Oscar Wilde said? Money can't buy this kind of PR so please keep up the "bachannal" as we say. But please don't fall out over this issue of package tours or not - they are here to stay, sadly, but there does seem to be enough clients around to keep the Virgins/Lunn Polys etc of this world AND the small fry like us in rum and roti. And each to their own - although I have tried to avoid signing up any of the AI hotels as they seem generally disliked by the populous for some of the reasons given above. I think it would take a scientific study to see exactly what they do contribute to locals - while surely damaging some external restaurant trades, they do employ a lot of people (albeit often on min wage) plus lots of secondary businesses to keep them with working a/c, plumbing, etc etc etc. And they do offer training to staff.

But, a few points to clarify:

1. Anyone buying an Excel Airways ticket through me will, in addition to getting it cheaper than from Golden Caribbean plus accom savings, be covered fully by GC's ATOL 2558. This is because we are "approved retail agents" and therefore covered by GC'c ATOL. Hence if someone sent me either a deposit or payment in full for a ticket, once the booking reference is issued (about 3 mins later), if I was to be kidnapped by Lunn Poly agents GC must honour all ticket agreements made between myself and the client. This also means that even if I had disappeared/gone bust etc BEFORE I have passed GC payment for the client ticket, the client does not have to pay again. GC will honour the agreement. Check http://www.atol.com for more information and do shout if I got any of this wrong.

2. John Rourke heads up an annual visit by a large group of 45-55 from the same Kentish village, several of whom I correspond with directly or have sold holidays to independent of the main group trip. I have not "twisted the arm" of John to post in this forum - if this was my intention I would not be doing a very good job since, as the group enjoys Canoe Bay every year and I am the agent contact listed in this site, I really should be twisting his arm (and the other 54) to write something nice about that resort, which they obviously adore. Sorry Steve, am innocent on this occasion, although as you know there are many who have - and do - use the forum to promote businesses, even by regular posting or name-dropping (myself in the past included, for which you squeezed my b-----s with your keyboard! ).

3. I may be half Trini and half Irish (Tri-rish sounds like trash if you say it quickly?) but we do consider ourselves "local" now. I do not think Steve would make such a comment about, for instance, a Pakistani born doctor with a british and pakistani passport who had been living and working in the UK for three years, helping the locals, so it is a bit unfair to consider Caroline and myself not "local" when I (and my 2 locally born babies) hold a T&T passport, Caroline has permanent residency, we pay all our taxes here, employ 3 local ladies at well above minimum wage and donate time and money/marketing to support a local children's home (which John Rourke and his group help us with also). I pose a question to Steve - when would we become "local"? Remember the majority african population of Tobago is, if you expand Steve's theory, not "local", having been brought here 300 years ago during the slave trade and having replaced the truly-local Carib amerindian population. 3 or 300 years, we are all immigrants here in Tobago, all locals in my opinion.

But I agree that development is inevtiable and not always a bad thing. Tobago has nearly full employment now, illegal immigrants (whether Guyanese, Nigerian or even British and Germans) now work in some jobs to keep things running and the island is awash with money and cars, in the hands of the rich minority, sadly. But with it comes pollution, crime etc etc. Life is never going to be perfect.

Best wishes
Glyn

[Steve Wooler]

Hi Glyn

Fair comment! I was actually trying to keep this whole thread away from involving you, because it seems to me that this whole silly thread is actually nothing to do with you or your services. You obviously can't be responsible for your clients. Knowing that you have far less tolerance than myself - and I admit that I don't suffer fools gladly - you sure have my sympathies.

Ignore my comments about "local". I was trying to make a point, not very well, that the moment we start using silly arguments about supporting 'local' businesses we enter into a nightmare and lose all credibility. I am certainly no lover of the AI resorts, but between them they employ a huge number of local people and support businesses. As much as I would like to see the profits of those organisations ploughed back into Tobago, I'm certainly not going to criticise their owners or anyone else running a business on the island for not being born Tobagonian of African descent.

No reply required.

[John Rourke]

Sorry didn't mean to stir up such a hornets nest, non of what I wrote was meant to be personal but obviously hit a few raw nerves, for which I apologise.

I am not sure where some people have got their facts from but companies such as Rex cannot ever be considered local to Tobago as they are as local as the Hilton.

I won't bang on about the protection Glyn offers to travellers as he has done that well enough.

The only point I was trying to make was that if we love Tobago as we do then we have to take responsibility to ensure some the things we love about it now and from years gone by are maintained. I am not foolish or romantic enough to expect what I found in the 70's to remain in total but I do wish for it not to sell it's soul to the multi national tour agents otherwise you end up with the tail wagging the dog as a large part of the Med has done not to mention some of the other Caribbean Islands.

Steve, if you have been travelling to Tobago longer than I have(didn't know there was a competition) surely you must feel that some of what I said rings true. I am sorry you felt strongly and I do regret that I used the word diplomatic to describe you because you are far from it, Paul on the other other thank you for being polite even if you didn't agree with me.

Just for the record Anthony suggested that Glyn must be desperate to deal with him.

I found it ammusing that judging by your comments you assumed Glyn might have put me up to the posting, on the contary it was all my own work. This has obviously rankled so much that you choose to question his birth palce, parentage and nationality, pretty low punch, he is certainly a lot more local than Rex, Coco and other international hotels. I suggest you get of your even higher moral horse.

If you want polite, sensible debate on this subject I would very much welcome it but if you personally attack me or my friends there seems little point.

Actually, I think we both want the same things for Tobago but maybe we have a different way of expressing it or how we think things should be done, I have no more desire to see Tobago develop in the right way but friends of over 30 years who have lived on Tobago all their lives are distressed at whats happening on the Island, friends visiting for the first time express concern. I just said it as I see it and what friends from Tobago tell me. I appreciate that the Governament has to get a handle on things out there but here seems to be no cohesive moves to take the Island forward in the manner it needs to, to create sustainability.

As this is probably the biggest voice in the world for Tobago fans (for which no praise is high enough for you) surely we should use it to good effect. Try and remember all the reasons you have gone back again and again and are they the same now. There is a very real danger that it could be lost as has so many palces in the world. It wasn't long ago that Greek islands, and other parts of the Med were thought of in the same light, I accept development IF it is for the good of Tobago and the Tobago people, remember it is their home, not ours.

As a thought have you considered inviting the local tourist board to get involved with the Website and let them see what peole think, good or bad and help them implement ideas from the biggest fans of the island to facilate good development and stop and not such pleasing asspects. I am willing to assist in any way I can. If you think this is appropriate give me a call on 01233 861201 and we can discuss, I hate e-mail for two reasons one the tone can never be properly intermated and mis-interpretation is ineviatable, secondly I am a sxxx typist.

Again sorry to those I offended, sincerely, just passionate about Tobago not just for me but for my kids and beyond.

[Steve Wooler]

Hi John

Apologies naturally accepted. Sorry I got so hot under the collar, but when you live and breathe a site like this and have more than two years of full-time labour invested in the project, you might understand why I didn’t take easily to what seemed to be a personal attack on myself and other valued contributors for no apparent reason.

Anyway, lets put that behind us.

Let’s take it back to basics. I actually totally agree with pretty much everything you said. But, with respect, it is a somewhat idealistic view of the subject. I had the same attitude – right until I started this site. Then I realised that I had to view things through the eyes of every type of visitor if I was to offer a balanced view. Before starting the site, I would recommend Barbados, Antigua, Nevis and a dozen or more Caribbean islands to friends. I would never suggest Tobago to anyone. I wanted it all to myself. Surely that is a very selfish attitude?

Should the authorities vet every tourist that goes to Tobago? Should they say “no hairdressers” (with all due respect to hairdressers)? Should we say that visitors to the Rex are less deserving than those who stay in expensive villas? Or less deserving than those who stay at the Coco Reef or Hilton, for that matter? After all, those who stay in budget accommodation are probably spending far less in the local community than those with money to burn.

As I said in my previous post, I was far from criticising Glyn by saying he wasn’t ‘local’. The point I was making, and continue to make, is that the moment you start to say “local” business you open a can of worms. Thank Christ that people like Glyn are there showing the ‘locals’ how to run businesses, because believe you me, if we left it up to many of the locals we would be staying in wooden shacks with cold water and no toilet paper. Sorry, Tobagonians, but you know what I mean and that I mean no offence.

My point is, where does “local” stop? How do you define whether a person or business is ‘local’. Are we betraying Tobago because we travel there with Excel, BA or Virgin rather than BWIA? So, the Rex Group are a UK company and all their profits come back to the UK. But what about the 100 or more staff they employ? What about all the local produce they buy for their restaurant? What about the taxis that take the guests to and from the hotel and out on excursions, etc? Take the argument a stage further and look at the Grafton/Le Grand Courlan – a Trinidadian company. Is that ‘local’? Don’t start me off on that one or we’ll be here all night and I’ll upset an awful lot of people.

I’m not sure whether you are saying the Hilton is, or isn’t, “local”. Well, the Hilton Group (owned by British firm Ladbrokes of course) now has the majority holding, with the T&T government owning the balance. So the Hilton is half local. Does that mean we should half support them? Leaving that aside, they are the biggest employers on the island outside the government. I would suggest that the Hilton’s weekly payroll puts more cash back into the local economy that the combined gross revenue of all the large reservation agencies on the island. Does that make them more or less deserving of support than the smaller businesses?

Yes, I am well-familiar with the argument that All-Inclusive resorts do not put enough back into the economy. Of course its partly true. However, without them, there would be no tourism industry worth speaking of. If it wasn’t for the ‘packages’ offered by the six big hotels there would be hardly any direct flights to Tobago. Its only the guaranteed sale of those package seats that keep most of the air services going. The independent travellers are just cream on top. Without those direct flights, tourism would crash – many people simply won’t bother if there’s transfer involved, not to mention the affect that the competition has on flight prices.

There’s another factor. Ask most independent repeat travellers where they stayed on their first trip to the island and odds are that they stayed at one of the large hotels. Only a small percentage of the overall travelling public have the confidence to “go it alone” to a destination they have never visited. Sure, sites like myTobago make it safer, but in truth, most first-time visitors play safe and stay at a large hotel. Then, as they get confidence in the place, so they start to drift out into the small ‘local’ accommodation and community.

So, the fact is that you can’t have one without the other.

I admit that I would LOVE Tobago to go back where it was 30 years ago. But, the sad fact is can’t go back. That’s why I started this website. We can’t stop tourism, but we can simply hope that the voice of public opinion will help to drive Tobago in the right direction. Help it to become a high-quality destination, not a rip-off one.

myTobago.info was first published four years ago last week. I have regularly and consistently said that it would take five years for the site to mature and begin to work. I still believe this to be true. Yes, it is already working and has done for some time. Businesses regularly praised in this forum are reaping the benefit. I know of half a dozen ‘bad’ businesses that have made radical changes to their policies or operation as a result of negative comment. During the first three months of 2006 the site handled 217,074 visitor sessions and delivered over a million page impressions. That’s 2,411 visitor sessions per DAY – around 9 sessions for every overseas traveller landing on the island. No wonder that some hotel managers estimate that 50% of visiting parties used the site in planning their holiday.

You ask if I had thought of inviting the local tourist board to get involved with the site. That is a tricky one. I believe that I am loved and hated by the local government and tourism industry authorities in pretty much equal measure. I am a loose cannon. A maverick over whom they have no control. As such some despise me. Those who are benefiting can’t speak highly enough of the site. Those who aren’t are suspicious and concerned by what they see as my attempts to control tourism on the island. We are not trying to CONTROL tourism – only to INFLUENCE it. I make no apology for that. It is you, the reader, who is achieving that. I am simply the coordinator, providing the medium and intiating the debate.

It normally takes me many weeks to get appointments to see all the ‘bigwigs’ in the tourism industry. As you will appreciate, ministers and such-like are very busy people. On Sunday 12th March, during the final two weeks of my recent visit, I emailed a letter to a number of important people expressing my concerns on a number of issues. I mentioned that my editorial stance would have to change because I no longer had the confidence that real action, rather than just talk, was taking place. Every recipient bar none contacted me within 24 hours. By 10am on the Monday morning I was in my first meeting. The following two days was nothing but meetings. Believe you me – they are listening – BIG TIME!

As a general rule, I despise politics and politicians. I have purposely tried to avoid taking political stances or getting involved in issues that could be seen a political (there are a few exceptions, but the truth is that politics are incidental to the issue and my views are not influended by ‘political’ considerations). The reason for this has been simple: Until the site has fully matured and really proven itself, I feel it more appropriate to take a ‘softly, softly’ approach with the authorities. If I had come on too heavy in the early days, I would probably have found that I was barred from entry to the island. No joke! However, even now the chances of that happening are almost inconceivable – simply because we already command a large enough readership for such an action to be counter-productive. The stronger myTobago grows, the more we shall be able to twist arms and express our views about how Tobago should develop from the point of view of sustainable tourism.

My only regret is that I didn’t start the site seven or eight years earlier.

So, John, rest assured that we share many of the same feelings and emotions. However, nothing happens quickly on Tobago. I think that the island is going to to have a bumpy couple of years, but am increasingly confident that it will develop into an enviable destination. Yes, it won’t be the Tobago of 30 years ago – but then where is the same? In the meantime, I will continue to support ALL tourism to Tobago, regardless of whether the visitors stays in a big A-I hotel or smaller ‘local’ accommodation and regardless of the racial or financial origins of any businesses involved. They all have their parts to play.

[Paul Tallet]

Open Forum Discussion?

No offence taken Steve ... and no offence intended ... but this is good open forum discussion ... a readible feast !!

I am very pleased that John had the bravery came back to put his record straight as I felt he did have some good points to make ... many would have been put off.

I would only like to say that we should try to moderate our reactions to those that charge aggressively into this forum to state their views ... whilst it cannot be condoned, we should accept that the aggression is possibly a reflection of how strongly they feel about what they want to say ... rightly or wrongly.

It is intensely frustrating to see personal insults being exchanged in this forum and such exchanges can be to the cost of what we all believe in and hope for.

Well said ... both John and Steve ... keep talking.

Regards

[Emma B]

I am glad that everyone has chilled out about this whole discussion. I posted the consumer advice in the second post months ago! I was very surprised at how things have developed, although it now appears to be sorted/resolved with most agreeing to agree or disagree!

If only we could bottle this kind of emotional energy for eco power!

My reply to the first post was not a personal dig at small reservation companies abroad, just some advice that was passed to me and I wanted to pass on. Sorry if some took it the wrong way.

I do not know John Rouke, or Glyn so my views and response were not personal to either of them. Sorry to both if you think my views were some kind of dig. They were and still are my own views and opinions and may be different to yours and others in this forum. And John, I am sorry but you don't know me, so your comments about who you think I am ...well its odd!

I was undecided to add more to this discussion as I had been in the firing line once already. But felt I needed to add my final thoughts after so much has been said by others.

I really hope that everyones toys are safely tucked back in their prams. Thanks Steve for your comments. I have grown an extra thick skin, now I'm as tough as old boots however, I would like to think, slightly better smelling! Ummmm!
Emma B

[Steve Wooler]

Hello Old Boot, sorry - Emma

Good to hear from you again. You wouldn't happen to be one of these naughty people who enjoy stirring things up are you?

Yes, all the toys are firmly stowed out of harms way. Given that I've currently got a very wet Golden Retriever lying beneath my desk and nothing smells worse than drying dog fur, I think I can safely say that you will win in the smell stakes.

Keep smiling!